Harnessing Skip-Level Meetings for Greater Collaboration

Unlock the secrets to fostering open communication and trust within your organization as we dissect the intricate world of skip-level meetings. We promise insights into how these meetings, when peppered with the right amount of clarity and regularity, can bridge gaps in hierarchies and enhance collaboration. Feel the pulse of your team as we share techniques to lead conversations that unearth hidden challenges and inspire excellence.

In a reflection that stretches beyond the confines of office walls, we muse over the art of witnessing history and the delicate task of preserving knowledge. This episode isn't just about the mechanics of management—it’s a thoughtful examination of our roles as observers and contributors to the grand narrative of human achievements.

In this episode, we discuss the following:
1. Importance of clarity in leadership initiatives
2. Strategic and thoughtful implementation of skip-level meetings.
3. Value of skip-level meetings in expanding leadership perspectives and addressing blind spots.

This episode is sponsored by LucidPoint
Are you struggling to take your IT organization to the next level?
We help our customers do so with confidence. Turn your vision into reality, call LucidPoint today!
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CONNECT WITH SUSIE:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/susietomenchok/

CONNECT WITH JAMES:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/capps/

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:15

Welcome to the Quick Take podcast, the show where you get targeted advice and coaching for executives by executives. I'm Suzy Tominczuk.

Speaker 2: 0:24

And I'm James Capps. Give us 15 minutes and we'll give you three secrets to address the complex topic of issues that are challenging executives like you today.

Speaker 1: 0:35

Hey, welcome to Quick Take. I'm one of your hosts, Suzy Tominczuk, along with James Capps. How are you, James?

Speaker 2: 0:41

Hey, Suzy, I'm super great. How about yourself?

Speaker 1: 0:44

I'm good. I'm good. I was in a meeting yesterday. Actually, it was a kickoff that the business unit was having and one of the things that the chief person that was running the meeting said she wanted all these people they were all leaders on the phone call to start doing skip levels. Oh yeah, and so it was good. But you know what happened after the meeting, I got a call from a senior leader that said an email, that said hey, can you and I get together and talk about what is a skip level?

Speaker 2: 1:17

Yeah, that's a great question.

Speaker 1: 1:20

That's a general thing. Everybody just thinks, oh, skip, level means you have meetings that are skip a level. But I think there's more to it than that and there should be some parameters or discussion about what that truly means. What do you?

Speaker 2: 1:34

think I totally agree with you, and I think that, like many things, we have terms and phrases that we throw around as executive leaders, and if we want a specific outcome, we have to be clear with our teams that clarity and having good requirements, if you will, and good definition will ensure your outcome. And not only that, though, I think, because skip levels are also creating a dialogue and they can be dangerous. You've got to do them correctly, and we'll definitely jump in really quick as to what I think they are, but if done wrong, I think they can actually undermine your organization's trust, the dialogue you have, the way that you communicate internally. If skip levels turn into more of a session of trying to get information behind people's back, you're certainly not going to get the outcome that perhaps that leader expected when she mandated everyone do a skip level.

Speaker 1: 2:37

Yeah, and I think that's so true. And then what that does is it impedes a lack of trust and then people start to it's going to breed like a culture of its own, and if it does become something where people can air their dirty laundry and then they're successful in it, that's just going to create more and more of it happening.

Speaker 2: 3:00

Right, let's take a step back and define them. Let's see if you and I agree with what a skip level is, because I believe a skip level is when a leader at a level and it could be any level skips the level below and has a meeting with their direct reports team. Now, that can be one-on-one, that could be in a group setting, but in my mind, it's an opportunity to get an unfiltered perspective from a skip level down to allow clarity and communication. Ideally, that information you get from that skip level meeting is the same information you're getting from the manager in the middle, and if that's the case, then really the outcome is creating harmony and transparency. If it's not, it's highlighting an issue. But at the end of the day, the skip level is a downward skip to allow a leader direct access to their team. What do you think? Is that how you define it?

Speaker 1: 4:05

Yep, that's how I define it when you were talking of, is also thinking that it does allow that leader to give some additional insights and some context. Maybe it should be the same, but it's not going to be exactly the same Absolutely. It also gives that feeling of I have access to that leader, so it also is a good message to have around that, because it opens up the dialogue.

Speaker 2: 4:31

Right, I agree. But I think one element there which is so important is the frequency, because I think, like many things, you can't do a skip level once. That's intimidation. Yeah, exactly so. I want to talk to you behind your bosses back, and I want you to be honest and don't lie.

Speaker 1: 4:50

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:52

Right, we've all been in that meaning. You know that's where nothing is said. You say everything is great and you walk away going. Somebody's getting fired. The whole point of a skip level, in my mind, is that it is a part of a broader process to keep an ongoing dialogue within the organization, and everything we describe today as some of the best practices I think are predicated on the fact that this is not a one and done. And I think what's important to describe you know what your example and the person you're working with you know. She mandated it strike one. She didn't start off by saying I want you to have regular, frequent skip levels, because if you don't just start with that, then somebody's going to come back in fourth quarter and say I did skip levels, you pick that scab a little bit. When did you do it? I did it in February. It was fine. That's not a skip level. So I think that's a real key element of this is it's got to be part of a more frequent conversation.

Speaker 1: 5:47

Yeah, and it has to be agreed on to your point at the start. It reminds me of when we used to work together. One of our peers, our CEO, was going to go into the operating rooms and visit, and that was the idea and that just to get more of you know comfort, I guess. And his, the CEO, said no, if I go in there they'll make a mistake on air. And our friend said yes, they will the first time, you know, and that's the whole point, right, and that was exactly right.

Speaker 2: 6:25

That was exactly right and, to be clear, those operating rooms were television network operation rooms, not surgical rooms.

Speaker 1: 6:32

I just like to make mistakes the first three times. I like to think I was a doctor or a surgeon, just for a nanosecond.

Speaker 2: 6:40

Yeah, but your risk tolerance was way too low. Yeah, on air mistakes are one thing, surgical mistakes are another.

Speaker 1: 6:49

Fair enough, fair enough Okay.

Speaker 2: 6:52

As we dive in. I think there's you know, I was reading a really great article around neuroscience and how leaders can get additional information and how one of the big topics they're talking about was about how you can get additional insights by having people outside of your immediate circle to provide you input. And I think that's really my first key element is, you know, when you're doing a skip level, think of it as a means by expanding your input set. So it's one thing to do a skip level to your you know down the guy right below you, but if your skip levels are right, good, you're not only getting deeper into the organization, but you're also getting different points of view. You're going to talk to folks. Maybe, if you're the CTO, you're going to talk to the marketing folks. If you're a CTO, you're going to talk to the legal, because that you know, neuroscience has shown that by bringing a different points of view into your conversation, it's going to make you more creative and also you're going to find ways to solve problems differently than you perhaps thought you would.

Speaker 1: 7:58

So I guess so it's the best practice here that you as a leader kind of look across the organization that you have influence and you pick people within that organization that you have a skip level with, so you go across the whole. That's exactly right, okay.

Speaker 2: 8:13

Exactly right. You know, I was working with a CFO who was talking about skip levels and I said, look, you should really try a skip level into the marketing organization and it really identified some really interesting cost savings and insights that they perhaps wouldn't have got if he had been just doing the skip level within the finance organization.

Speaker 1: 8:32

Okay, I mean we might get to this, but what if you have a humongous organization with thousands of people?

Speaker 2: 8:39

Yeah, I think you just have to be thoughtful.

Speaker 2: 8:40

You can't Again, like we said, this could be a detractor as you described. You know we wouldn't want them making mistakes on air, but you know you want to be thoughtful about how do you do it across the organization and make sure that you are looking at different points of view. And I think you know that's a great segue into the second one, which is really making sure that you are focusing on blind spots. I think well, first one do be broad, but second one also be targeted in areas that you are weak as a leader. Do a skip level into a space that you don't have the skills that you might have. I think you know technology is a blind spot for a lot of leaders and I think it's clutch If you can get a CEO to do a skip level with some junior developers who are going to give you insights that you may not have otherwise. And so I think you know doing a skip level, focusing in an area that perhaps you have a blind spot, I think is really important way to look at it.

Speaker 1: 9:43

Yeah, I love that. I think that's so good and just being able to bring in that context for you.

Speaker 2: 9:51

It's so, and you?

Speaker 1: 9:51

have to be okay, because that could be really scary if you don't have any idea what to ask it's like what do I say if you don't know that area of the business?

Speaker 2: 10:02

You know, it reminds me of Brené Brown's Dare to Lead, which talks a lot about vulnerability and the importance of you know, having those skip level meetings as a leader, saying I don't understand this space. You know, that's one of really the classic books about being a good leader and, I think, being vulnerable and ensuring that your people understand that you have some blind spots and saying, hey, I'm going to work on that. By having a skip level in an area that I have a blind spot, it's a great way to address that.

Speaker 1: 10:31

Yeah, and it can't be that scary. You don't have to think about the right question to ask, but if you just go into it and say what is something I should know about what you do or how your area affects the business, it just needs to be a very general, open-ended question.

Speaker 2: 10:49

I couldn't agree more, and I think that really, what a great segue into the third, a piece of advice, which is really realize that that while you, as the leader, are doing a skip level, maybe to get some insights, your attention to some of these folks is really going to spark some action on their end. The fact that you care, the fact that you showed some interest in what they're doing, is going to go a long way, and so I think we'll spend a couple extra seconds if we've got some time to talk about the kind of questions. But really, when you are doing the skip level, you're going to really have an opportunity to draw out and identify some, really put some energy into the lower ranks, and I think that that's a key element of a skip level.

Speaker 1: 11:35

I think that's so important and I do have a question around that that I think might be a bonus is what do you? Is it confidential and do you? Go back to the person that's between you and that other person, and do you report back to them or not?

Speaker 2: 11:53

You know, honestly I always do, and because of our real, the overarching element here is we want skip levels to be building trust right, and so certainly a saying we're going to do a skip level Everyone knows you're doing it be, you're going to do it frequent, so they're not seen as punitive. But but C, you know C, I think I went ABC you want it to be creating trust, not only with the skip level but also your management. Now, just like many things you know, you may not need to share everything, but I always like to say hey, you know what, rachel, I met with your team this week. As described on my monthly meeting with your team Sounds like things are going well. So there was some concern about this particular you know device on the on the showroom floor or in the assembly line. Can we talk about that? We hadn't heard about that before. Hey, you know, there's no, no harm nor foul there, but the transparency I think across the board is so, so key.

Speaker 1: 12:53

Yeah, and it makes me think too. What did you say, rachel? Was that the word?

Speaker 2: 12:59

That was probably the name I came up with.

Speaker 1: 13:01

But but she also needs to handle that feedback well so that it doesn't close the door to there's a lot of things to be thoughtful around, so that when that comes back, you don't, she doesn't go back and go. Why did you tell James that about?

Speaker 2: 13:17

this.

Speaker 1: 13:17

We had some assembly line issues, so you got to be really have a discussion about it.

Speaker 2: 13:24

Yeah, I think. Look, there are hundreds of examples and I think you and I have several of the recriminations that can occur due to skippable. This is like you know you're finding. You know the the problems in your organization through this process, like if you can't trust your manager or your people can't trust that, you know there that trust isn't there, you got a bigger issue. Skip levels is not the problem. Right, this is a tool. It is a metal detector. It'll help you find out where you got some areas of focus. Skip levels are an incredible tool. I have a tremendous amount of faith at them. I require them. I could I provide that as a as a recommendation for everybody, but it isn't the only tool in your toolbox.

Speaker 1: 14:07

That's very fair. Okay, do you want to talk about questions or do you want to Wrap it up?

Speaker 2: 14:12

Yeah, let's let's just let's add up. Maybe a bonus wheel here is that you know these questions need to be open-ended. Yeah, this is really where I think about. Simon says Nick's, you know, start with the why, get, get, get to the point where you're. You're asking broader questions. Ask open-ended questions. Ask questions as if there were no constraints. I like the idea of saying to somebody hey, um, if you had infinite number of resources, what problem would you solve at the company? If you were in my shoes, what would you fix? You know those kind of things. I find if you go in and say, hey, what would you fix with our marketing group? That's a pretty pointed question.

Speaker 2: 14:52

Yeah, and ultimately you might want to have that conversation. But you know, to create that kind of dialogue those open-ended questions are a much better way. They seem less like you're trying to catch somebody. They're less punitive. It's not as if you're trying to get info on one of the your employees. That open-ended Methodology is a great way to to create that appropriate relationship.

Speaker 1: 15:14

I think that's great, and two tips on that before you do. The three is yeah, open-ended questions are seven words or less, and I only mention that because don't keep going on and on as lead leaders. Leave the context out and so plan your questions especially if that is kind of the thing that you always do and Practice silence after you ask the questions.

Speaker 2: 15:37

See negotiation happens all the time. Oh, that is. I love it when that's such a great piece of advice. I do, and I've witnessed many people saying I asked an open-ended question, you did, and then you went on for five minutes Exactly and closed that window so there was only a yes or no answer. That's not an open-ended question. It does take practice. I think that's such a great observation.

Speaker 1: 16:03

So, all right, let me bring it home.

Speaker 2: 16:04

So you know, when it comes to skip levels, I think you need to remember that they are part of a broader effort to encourage a collaborative conversation. And that first one, I think it's so important that you really have, you know, these regular skip levels and you go broad. You structure them in a way that makes sense so they're not seen as punitive First one. Second allow them the opportunity. Use these as an opportunity to go into areas that you may have a blind spot. Have a skip level with a group you're uncomfortable with. Show some vulnerability and say, hey, I don't know much about this, I'd like to learn more through a skip level. And then, obviously, allow these meetings to be realized. They're not just for you, they're also for the people you're speaking with. Allow these one-on-ones, these skip levels, to spark some engagement and energy in them as well. So use these as an opportunity to motivate your group.

Speaker 1: 16:56

Yes, that was so good. I think that we believe that skip level is just such an easy thing to do. We're just going to schedule a meeting, just do the skip level, even just spending the time we could have kept going. It just illustrates the point that you have to be very thoughtful about your approach. So great stuff.

Speaker 2: 17:14

Totally agree.

Speaker 1: 17:14

Great stuff, james, thank you.

Speaker 2: 17:16

Great topic.

Speaker 1: 17:20

So this one, James. I was wondering and this is such a good one for you If you could swap roles with any historic figure for a day, who would it be, and why?

Speaker 2: 17:34

Okay, I'm more intrigued by you why you think this is a good one. I don't know. When you talk about going back in history, there's all the obvious things like would you kill Hitler? Would you change the way that keeps Caesar from being stabbed? What do you change in history? I don't know. For me, it's about some of the things that are just lost, and knowledge. For me, I don't know that If I was to trade place with somebody, it'd be like I would trade place with a guy who sat next to Aristotle all day. It's not that I want to be somebody. I would want to be a witness to something. For me, I think, a lot about the whole of human knowledge and the loss and the fact that we haven't done a great job of maintaining that or maintaining it objectively. I think for me, it would be less about trading places, but more about being a witness too.

Speaker 1: 18:47

Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Quick Take, where we talk about the questions that are on the mind of executives everywhere. Please click with us and share what's on your mind.

Speaker 2: 18:57

You can find us on LinkedIn, youtube or whatever nerdy place on the Internet. You find your podcasts. Our links to the show are in the show notes. We appreciate you.