Psychedelics and Their Place in Executive Development

Could unlocking the full potential of your mind be as simple as tapping into the psychedelic experience? Join us as we discuss the burgeoning curiosity among executives about the use of psychedelics for cognitive advancement and accelerated therapy. We're not just talking about a rebellious phase; this is about controlled, thoughtful exploration into substances like psilocybin mushrooms, ketamine, and even THC that might just revolutionize the way we approach leadership and mental health.

As we muse on the possibilities, we also ponder the practicalities: Could this be the new frontier in team-building and executive performance? Tune in for an interesting talk that might alter your perception of the future of executive coaching and self-discovery.

In this episode, we discuss the following:
1. The growing interest in using psychedelics to deepen thinking and expand mental boundaries.
2. The importance of having intelligent discussions about psychedelics and creating ethical frameworks for their use.
3. The potential benefits of psychedelics in fostering creativity and personal growth.

This episode is sponsored by LucidPoint
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CONNECT WITH SUSIE:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/susietomenchok/

CONNECT WITH JAMES:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/capps/

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:15

Welcome to the Quick Take podcast, the show where you get targeted advice and coaching for executives by executives. I'm Suzy Tominczuk.

Speaker 2: 0:24

And I'm James Capps. Give us 15 minutes and we'll give you three secrets to address the complex topic of issues that are challenging executives like you today.

Speaker 1: 0:35

Hey Quicksters, Welcome to Quick Take. I'm Suzy Tominczuk, along with James Capps. How are you, James?

Speaker 2: 0:41

You know I'm actually kind of congested today. Yeah, I got a little of the. Well, it's a little of the flu, maybe a little white flu. The snow has been pretty great up here, so I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but if I do a sneeze or cough or kichu, it's legit. It's not intended to address our brand management or something like that.

Speaker 1: 1:04

Okay, I think I'm going to call you Phoebe today, okay. Phoebe, okay, I don't get that, so we'll move on. Okay, so those the good, that's good. They don't get it. Some people in the audience do. Okay, so I'll just say smelly cat. That's all I'm going to say.

Speaker 2: 1:20

Okay, that's okay. I needed some context. Yes, no, I get you. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:24

She's sick and she likes her sexy voice. So there you go.

Speaker 2: 1:27

I can drop it down an octave. There you go, okay.

Speaker 1: 1:31

All right, I think I shouldn't have brought that up. I take that back, rewind so. But let's talk about this idea of messing with our minds.

Speaker 2: 1:40

Oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:42

I can't believe we're having this conversation. I think I feel like I'm I'm on my way to college and my you know I'm getting some warnings. But I had a friend who she said I want to have a conversation with you, don't judge me. And I was like, okay.

Speaker 2: 1:56

Totally leaned in. I'm like all right, no judgment.

Speaker 1: 2:01

But let me get my tape recorder. That's right. But she talked to me about kind of this new fat or I guess. I guess I shouldn't call it that a movement around using psychedelics in a trusted circle to really deepen your ability to think and, you know, expand out, and there's actually a Netflix show on this or a documentary on the use of psychedelics. What's it called?

Speaker 2: 2:28

It's a how to change your mind and it's actually based on a book. Oh, interesting.

Speaker 2: 2:34

It's very good. Yeah, I've seen that, but it's a great topic. I mean, you know, I think it's like a lot of things. There's a huge spectrum in that of that discussion to have. I think there is psychosilbans, which are mushrooms, there is ketamine, there's even THC, you know, marijuana. All these things are being talked about as ways to you know, as that, as that book and Netflix, you know, change your mind Really, how do you adjust the way that your brain thinks and science and medicine are coming to a place to accept that?

Speaker 1: 3:09

Yeah, and I just just to give a little bit more definition too. She was saying that it's a group of people that get together, you agree, to like kind of stay in one place. There's actually people that are not participating, but they have a lot of insights and knowledge around the substances, so they administer them and they control and keep track of what's going on. And the whole idea is to just deepen, get yourself to think beyond your boundaries 100%.

Speaker 2: 3:42

Yeah, I have friends who are in the mental health area, big believers. One friend said to me that she felt, you know, a effective and Managed use of ketamine can accelerate your therapy by years, and so I think it's a real, a real interesting space. But I think, you know, for our listeners and for you know, leadership it's. It's something worth discussing and not as in hey, let's, let's all you know after work do some cat. It's a let's have an adult conversation about that and what, as a leader and as a An executive and a person who is trying to drive an organization, how does this fit into the conversation?

Speaker 1: 4:27

Wow, and so do you think like these are becoming like team events. We're gonna do a team event.

Speaker 2: 4:31

You know I it's funny you mentioned it that way, because I know that there was a recent article about some of the board members on Twitter or Whatever that's called. Now, no, yeah, I can you say that word, or you just have to make a symbol. I forget. Is it like his name? There you go, that we're felt obligated to do ketamine when they were at meetings with the with musk, and so I do. I think that's the answer. Absolutely not. Yeah, I think that you know this is like many things. I think it's.

Speaker 2: 5:05

It's really something that the it's up to the individual. I don't think I would ever force my, my board or my director ports to go to the gym. I don't think I'd ever force them to go out and drink with me or even force them to just go to therapy. I think that's, you know, what I want out of my. My leadership team is the best and I'm gonna encourage them to do and and, excuse me be the best, and I think that's that's really my first piece of advice is you know you need to demystify that buzz and have the honest conversation around it. You know, I think one of the greatest stories that, if you unpack it, paul Stamets and Steve Jobs credit apples existence with a weekend on Psychedelics that is canonical.

Speaker 2: 5:48

It is in in the books that they've written. And so I think, if you step away from the, the, the jokes and maybe the historical Biases that we have, I think that there are some really intelligent studies on this. So I think, as a, as a leader, the first thing you want to do is, you know, get away from the, the buzz, get away from the, the biases. Look at some of the research. Like a Poland's got a great research paper called on the trip about Psychedelics that I think is worth reading and he's, and it talks about the history of that and some of the Weird ways that that has actually come to pass and that the why we think about it the way we do. So, you know, have a good adult point of view on it, I think, is the first thing you can do.

Speaker 1: 6:37

It's so interesting because I I'm trying to put myself in that that frame of mind and it makes me wonder if I would want to Experience before I had a judgment. I don't know how I could make that Consideration, whether I was going to even like how I would embrace it in the workplace, I guess.

Speaker 2: 6:56

I 100% agree. I just think that you know my attitude on a lot of these things whether, even in the early days of you know, marijuana being legalized was we have a certain perspective on these things and they should be just treated independently. And if people are making their own choices and they're done in a way that they want to do it, that's their prerogative. You know, I'm very laissez-faire with that stuff and I think I think, do I encourage people to be smart and intelligent? Yes, do I need to condone it or encourage it? Necessarily at work? Probably not. But what an interesting conversation to have Because, depending on your industry and depending on what you're trying to accomplish, there's some pros to that thinking.

Speaker 1: 7:38

Yeah, all right. So what's the second thing?

Speaker 2: 7:40

Well, I think really, it's really about what you were saying is how do you create the conversation so it is intelligent and there are frameworks around doing it wisely, right? I think you want to say first, all right, I'm okay with this, and then, what is it really the right way to do it? And I think you know that book, you know how to change your mind. Like your friend said, working with people who are truly you know, applying it as a medicine, as a science, as a way to improve yourself. I think it's, it's intelligent approach and you want to think about it that way. You know, I don't think you would ever get up in the morning and say I'm going to go run a marathon today.

Speaker 2: 8:21

You, susie, could do that because you have legs up to here and there was a day that you could just do that, and I had been running behind you at some of those times when I was wishing for death. But normal humans, you know, just can't do things like that, and I think this is no different than that. You don't just jump into this, you just go down, go down to the, to the five and dime and pick up some ketamine and give it a shot. I think you explore the ways to do this intelligently. You look at it as a any other thing, that that you need to learn about, and intelligently explore that.

Speaker 1: 8:56

Yeah, okay. So what's the third one?

Speaker 2: 8:58

Well, the third one, I think, is really about how you move forward with it and having a mindset or an approach that allows you to explore and take advantage of that creativity. I think that a lot of creativity in the boardroom goes unappreciated and actually a lot of that groupthink is a problem. So I think that if you look at this as maybe sending somebody off to a training program or sending off somebody to a Yale six-month program on leadership, be sure, when they return, that you take advantage of the work that they have done. I know that I went off and I did a leadership program at Duke for a while and when I returned, the company was really huge on making sure that we took advantage of the things and the money we invested. And so I think if you're going to adopt or embrace this, if you're going to have an open mind to this, then you need to then find a way to take advantage of it.

Speaker 1: 10:01

Yeah, it makes me also think that you have to be as open-minded to the people that aren't as open-minded. So if you do this in a group and there are a few that aren't or are a little more reluctant, then, think about that. And then the other thing is when you're done, I think, make it really okay to say what was beneficial and what wasn't, because it may not end up being the same aha for one person as another.

Speaker 2: 10:29

Absolutely right, and I think it's like many things. I mean, if you put too much credence into it and assume that when that person comes back, they're the Messiah, that's also a problem. Right, you're overselling this magic being and it's not really that, but at the same time, you don't want to look down or punish those who don't believe in it. It's like many things in leadership there's a balance, there's mindset and there is a goal towards growth, and I think if you look at this as one of the tools in your toolbox, then I think that's a great way to think about it.

Speaker 1: 11:05

Yeah, I agree. And before you go with all three tips and bring it back around, I just want to say that I just got a call from our lawyers and I want to make sure that you understand that we're not condoning or there's going to be some small print that you have to read around this episode.

Speaker 2: 11:22

I'm saying that too, because I know my parents are listeners, so I'm getting a little bit nervous. Well, it's not like we're selling supplements. For God's sake, okay, thanks.

Speaker 1: 11:31

Thanks, that makes you. That's all they needed. All right, so let's move on. Okay, what's the tip number?

Speaker 2: 11:39

one. Well, the first one is demystify it. Yeah, there you go.

Speaker 1: 11:43

Take a look at it understand your biases.

Speaker 2: 11:45

Two, look at it, explore an ethical way of doing it, be clear on how you're going to accomplish that and what you're going to do to support it. And then, three, put the framework in place so you can take advantage of this as a new tool in your toolbox.

Speaker 1: 12:00

Yeah, okay, those are good. This is an interesting one. I would love for people to tell us what they think of this one for sure.

Speaker 2: 12:07

Yeah, yeah, great feedback.

Speaker 1: 12:09

Thanks, james. Okay, james, that was the last book, podcast or article that you read that left a lasting impact on you.

Speaker 2: 12:24

Oh, I am currently listening to a podcast called Dyssect and it is a podcast that is 11 seasons and each season the host dissects a single album so I'm a big Radiohead fan and he is dissecting the In Rainbows album. It's 10 songs, 16 episodes. Each episode he goes through each song and a level of detail that is mind boggling. Oh, we discuss each instrument and when they come. In his level of music theory, knowledge is out of control.

Speaker 1: 13:10

Interesting.

Speaker 2: 13:13

And he has other musicians who will actually play the instruments that are being played in a song so they can extract them from the song, so they can hear how they are played. His level of knowledge is just really quite shocking. He has multiple episodes of the show does and I'm going to actually look right now in real time what other albums he looks at, because his the albums. I'm super excited to look at other albums that he is doing. He did Tire the Creator's album, kendrick Lamar's album I'm going to do. The next album I think is a Childish Gambino's first, a third album which is super interesting. He does a Jay-Z album. So I'm really interested to like get deep and nerdy in some of these other song albums and genres that I don't follow. Of it it's like it is heavy listening, like there is no, you can't do anything else.

Speaker 1: 14:16

Good thing you're only driving. Yeah, exactly right, interesting, all right. Thanks for sharing that. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Quick Take, where we talk about the questions that are on the mind of executives everywhere. Connect with us and share what's on your mind.

Speaker 2: 14:33

You can find us on LinkedIn, youtube or whatever nerdy place on the internet you find. Your podcasts or links to the show are in the show notes.

Speaker 1: 14:41

We appreciate you.